Marathon Performance Forum » Info

800m training

(9 posts)
  1. Got a question on the 800m from someone. We are talking about someone wanting to be elite. I would have liked to have included 800m-1500m in Run faster but not sure they saw a market for it. I have coached and am interested in the 800m.(Colorado state champ 800m) I do think it is a one of the toughest events to coach along with the Marathon. If you have looked at many elite programs there are a wide variety of ways to train for the 800m. I beleive Coach Chapman from Indiana Elite and ex. phys.professor refers to it as pure VOO DOO. What he is saying it is very difficult to use general terms from a science stand point. I beleive that of almost all training of elites. We are all individual experiments of one. With that said the 800m is one of the most extreme events where being off a tiny bit can make a huge difference in fading up the stretch or powering home. It will take much tinkering to find the right formula for the individual. Always the balance of speed and strength.

    When Peter Snell won gold in 1960 and again in 1964 the event had really changed as many more programs began incorporating longer endurance work in all periods and saw Endurance work from the Marathon connected to all running events above the 400m. So when training an 800m runner(or any runner?) one must look at what type of runner they are? Are they a resistant type of 800m runner? 1500m/800m? Meaning not the best speed but very strong like Steve Cram, Steve Ovett, Peter Snell, Alan Webb, Suzy Hamilton or a Fast 400m/800m runner that lacks endurance Billy Konchellah, Yuri Borzakoy, Alberto Juanterina, Earl Jones, Local athlete Matt Scherer, Maggie Vessey. (Also many fall in between Cruz, Symmonds) the first group normally do higher volume and train like 1500m/5km runners most of the year and the fast group normally lower volume and get sluggish from just general running. So here it is you need a balance of Speed and endurance and you need to always be aware where your athletes are aerobicly when they run low mileage or taper especially the speed guys who tend to lose that quickly and with the endurance guys keeping enough intensity in to keep in the game as they need to run much closer to their 400m p.r. for the avg. So we use the philosophy of all running events realizing the 800m is an event of intensity just like the marathon is an event of volume. Meaning you need to have intensity to be great in the 800m and you need volume to be great in the marathon. This is based on how everyone in the world has trained to perform world class in these events. How much is the art of coaching? So to train like a long sprinter or fast distance runner? Regardless both athletes will need to have the ability from the 400m> - <1500m. It will vary on how good but the connection so important. So this is the key during racing season. If your a 400m moving up to have the ability to race the 1500m and keep endurance/volume in the mix while not destroying your natural speed and Anerobic power that keeps you close in the 400m. If your a 1500m guy not losing your ability of economy and have the velocity amd latic tolerance to keep you close.

    So i can write examples if need be. You must first decide if your a sprinter 400m runner coming from a bigger % plyo's , weights, tecnique, intermittent aerobic work(short rest faster velocities) cross-training or a strength runner coming from volume, hills, long intervals and longer tempos. These runners usually very different
    from a physcological stand point. All need alot of the same things. Specific endurance for 800m can be the same but it will be in the volume and percentage of their training support that will vary. I know some higher volume 90-100miles per week 800m athletes and lower 10-12 miles per week more later.

    Posted 10 months ago #
  2. I'll write training tonight and give some specific endurance workouts during racing season. Ex. 4 x 400m's 5-6min. rec. just faster than race pace. Remember for this type of intensity longer rest are not only correct but necessary. Always remember the most important thing is what you have done in the past so it is possible to go forward with correct training for improvement and health.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  3. Sorry for the delay on 800m questions. I have been quite busy with the business end of Marathon Performance. I like J.K./Kellogg very much but i do not favor long blocks of very low resistance or even that high volume for 800m runners or other athletes except in some rare exceptions. I also don't beleive in low mileage periods where just quality or sharpening is emphasised. We will have periods where we sharpen but never let all the qualties leave the training. The percentage may change greatly depending on what is needed. The philosophy we use is of the Italian system of CONTINOUITY, GRADUALNESS and HIGH MODULATION. You may know the coach i beleive in the most is RENATO CANOVA. If your a 1:44-43 athlete you never let all your qualties go and should always have the ability to run 1:47-48 in any period. that does not mean you race always but keeping the ship steered and closer to what the goal is while building to become better. I beleive Canova said "We need more Modulation between speed endurance and , quality and extension, in order ton create a base for exalting the personal quality" Training is to add to your fitness not replace. You can build your aerobic qualties with your speed.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  4. I keep getting questions on Lydiard style 800m training and Daniels style. They both use more block type periodization. The training that i use is much more gradual and works many of the same systems (My biggest influence is RENATO CANOVA but try to be open for any type of methodolgy from anyone) in every period but the percentage will be much different. I don't think they are wrong just that i beleive our system works better because of the the degree you can change the percentage year after year and also allowing athletes to compete much more frequently. Also for not using the same type of training for each system. You will see once you have trained world class athletes at a very high level that they will not improve doing the same system every year.( also after college general training helps less and less) I like both of those coaches very much but feel both are lacking some fundamental things. Both of them don't include alatic training in their system. (lydiard does do some sprints) They also rely on one type of aerobic trainng. To me very inefficient and stale. Lydiard the long run at medium resistance and Daniel's (4mmol) threshold training normally broken up. Also with Daniel's they don't take any hills or specific strength work into the equation.
    For the system we use these are all aerobic support and don't fall under one energy system ex. From least specific to most 1.Long run fast mix, 30min. easy to mod.+15 x 60sec. fast/ 60sec. slow +10min. mod.+20min. fast 2. 2mmol Marathon paced runs 20-80min. 3. 4mmol threshold training 3-4x 3km/1km, 3-4 x 2mile/ 2:00, 2 x 15/60, 5-6 x 1600m/ 60sec. rec., 2 x 4miles, 10km progression, 5-7 x 6:00/ 2:00, 8min./6min/4min./2min./1min. 2:00 rec. 4. 20-45min. Fast climbs, 5. Power endurance Fartlek long intervals 10km type feel, 5km-10km spec., 2-4min hills, 3km-5km, vvo2 work, yasso 800m's, mile-1500m spec. 6. specific support paced work 150-200m's with short rest closer to race pace. So all of these will improve your aerobic system and can be considered threshold depending on your event and what you need. Remember to bring crisis to the body is the answer. Remember we build two bases. Muscular and Metabolic. We need both to be strong to run well. You must experiment as you train athletes to acheive this balance. So during racing season we try to build the race pace endurance 95-105% of race pace but normally things do not go perfect with sickness, injury and recovery and absorption of training so to me it's much more important to not live by strict periodization rules and leave the last period open for everything that is needed to get the athlete to run well. If an athlete has been hurt why would you not use aerobic work? Remember really there is only three systems. alatic, Anerobic, Aerobic but remember there are so many ways than just threshold paces to improve your aerobic system. and the key is how you blend all of these with individual athletes to acheive the best performance. Especially when you realize the lactate levels that 800m-1500m athletes race at.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  5. Also i have not included volume regeneration,easy, moderate, singles, doubles, cross trainng in the above post.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  6. Regarding the young athletes question. The fast-long run mix is the fastest and easiest way for a young athlete to improve his aerobic system as he will be improving from just general running. Normally think general to specific through the course of your career. Also to improve coming from altitude is very different.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  7. Also you must look at everything. How many college systems use Lydiard? Almost none if you look at Cross, indoors and outdoors.this is esp. important for the post collegiate athlete. Alot times they have run well in college where they are racing frequently not always hard which takes the place of long intervals. They try to do the same training but forget the long intervals and concentrate on specific endurance. Also women race the 6km during cross and many teams train alot like the 5km.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  8. Old400800
    Member

    Could you give more examples, please, especially mile-1500 specific for fast 400 type?

    Posted 5 months ago #
  9. JFree
    Member

    Brad,

    I'd also like to hear more on your approach to 800m/1500m training if you aren't too busy; perhaps in a format like what you presented in "Run Faster...", ex. showing progressions of Aerobic Support, Neuromuscluar Support, and Specific Endurance. I think many people view your approach, and that of Canova, as along the same lines as 5k, 10k, HM, and marathon training. I think, and I think you'd agree, that the approach must be very different due to the fact that the 800/1500 are lactic. You made that clear in our article on 800m training, but perhaps you could outline a schedule with these progressions to show how it's different. Thanks in advance.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #

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93 posts in 38 topics over 15 months by 29 of 62 members. Latest: sliver25, wuzyla55, JFree